Is there place for Islam in a civilised society?

Sorry if that offends, but it has to be said, more and more reports are coming into the light of day which suggest that we have more than a serious problem with radical Islam and that this problem goes right back to the core of its beliefs. It seems to believe that violence and aggression are the only forms of legitimate response when criticised or when it feels that it is being ridiculed or mocked. In our prisons more than 12% of all prisoners are Muslims, compared to a 5% of the normal population and their numbers are growing. Recent court cases one being held in Liverpool today shows that Muslim men are involved in and cover up the mass grooming and sexual abuse of young women pretty much exclusively white and outside their own community, they are know to attack anyone not a Muslim even talking to their own women and have been known to murder their women for simply not acting in a Muslim way. They have demanded (and gotten) a barbarous dietary method accepted by mainstream stores and food outlets (halal meat) where the suffering of animals is secondary to the method used and a prayer to some pagan god said over said suffering animal. They flout our marriage (and bigamy) laws and have used their minority status to gain a privileged and protected place within our state where often enough the police will overlook crimes committed by Muslims, meet a wall of silence in a Muslim community or (it is rumoured) have member of the Muslim Police Association cover up the crimes in the name of community cohesion. Even when caught and sentenced, a Muslim would appear to get a lesser sentence than anyone of the majority indigenous group would for a similar crime.

Its members have been involved in homophobic propaganda and attacks on gays in areas it considers to be its own, they have even demanded female shop assistants (non Muslim) cover up in these areas and have attacked teachers who have taught other religions as part of the school curriculum in one case hospitalising the guy. Egged on by Muslim preachers many from abroad who have travelled into this country to preach their vile intolerance invited by various mosques who appear to act with no fear of sanction from the UK government or border controls. Muslim gangs run free in our prisons and radicalise anyone they can get a hold of, one such guy recently went off to Yemen to train to be a terrorist, fortunately he was caught. Others were recently sentenced for planning to set off bombs in the Stock Exchange.

These are but the tip of the iceberg, this religion and its adherents are being treated with kid gloves by the powers that be whilst the fears and the worries of the majority are being fobbed of with misleading platitudes such as “The Religion of Peace” and frightened with screams of racist, bigot, islamophobe etc and it’s starting to fracture our society.

That’s not to say all Muslims are terrorists, nor that all wish us harm, though telling which from which is a massive problem facing our security services, it’s just that it strikes me that we can no longer ignore the problems Islam brings whilst praising the few benefits.

Nor does it strike me that there is any place for this religion and its adherents in a civilised society, my problem stems from not knowing how to resolve the problems it brings without resorting to a massive ethnic style cleansing of the followers of Islam from the UK. Yet where could we send them and would we be setting up a civil war in our own country if we tried. If we place sanctions upon it, would we simply drive its followers underground and increase its radicalisation by adding to its already deep seated and misplaced sense of persecution by anyone not of Islam.

Is there any way we can allow these followers of a vile totalitarian political method wrapped up in the trappings of a religion to live amongst us though?

I somehow think not and it’s not going to be a particularly pleasant time until the problem is resolved, hopefully before Islam decides it can assimilate us by the sword as it did to the non Muslims of Lebanon, as it does to the Copts in Egypt, as it does to the Assyrians in Iraq and Iran as it is doing in Nigeria and the Sudan.

We can live with Islam only so long, eventually it returns to its central ethos, submit or die.

18 comments for “Is there place for Islam in a civilised society?

  1. February 6, 2012 at 7:11 am

    Excellent post!

    I agree entirely with your comments.

    Things won’t change in the UK until the government is changed and the Big Three are removed from power. Then the UK can be removed from the EU and make its own decisions.

    We need a set of politicians who are inspired by Churchill – not The Kinnocks.

  2. February 6, 2012 at 7:22 am

    ‘…it has to be said, more and more reports are coming into the light of day which suggest that we have more than a serious problem with radical Islam…’

    Which problem would not exist without the pernicious doctrine of ‘multiculturalism’. Treat them exactly the same as any other identity group – no special rights, no pandering to aspects of their lifestyle and religion, no benefits or ‘get out of jail free’ clauses – and the problem goes away.

    • February 6, 2012 at 7:40 am

      It’s not just the powers that be pandering to them, Islam causes problems in other countries who don’t ascribe generally to the idiocy of the liberal left.
      For example Islam believes…
      Under Sharia law:
      There is no freedom of religion
      There is no freedom of speech
      There is no freedom of thought
      There is no freedom of artistic expression
      There is no freedom of the press
      There is no equality of peoples-a non-Muslim, a Kafir, is never equal to a Muslim
      There are no equal rights for women
      Women can be beaten
      A non-Muslim cannot bear arms
      There is no equal protection under Sharia for different classes of people. Justice is dualistic, with one set of laws for Muslim males and different laws for women and non-Muslims.
      Our Constitution is a man-made document of ignorance, jahiliyah, that must submit to Sharia
      There is no democracy, since that means that a non-Muslim is equal to a Muslim
      Non-Muslims are dhimmis, third-class citizens
      There is no Golden Rule
      There is no critical thought
      All governments must be ruled by Sharia law
      Unlike common law, Sharia is not interpretive, nor can it be changed.

      This in essence is what all Muslims are supposed to believe and work for, a lot don’t but a core hard line group of radicals do and their influence within the Muslim communities goes way beyond their numbers as most Muslims are intellectually ignorant of their own holy book having only a copy of it in Arabic and woefully ill equipped therein to contradict or debate the radicals assuming the radicals just don’t decide to make an example of them in the first place.
      Yes our politicians are complicit in allowing Islam to take deep root here, but Islam would be a problem sooner or later even had they not, its central tenets run counter to Western freedoms as the rules on shariah I posted demonstrate.

      • February 6, 2012 at 3:53 pm

        I’m with Jefferson on this – “The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.
        — Thomas Jefferson, Notes on the State of Virginia

        Let’s let them believe what they want. But not put it into practice, nor be allowed (by the state) to pick our pockets or break our legs.

    • wiggiatlarge
      February 6, 2012 at 1:26 pm

      True ,but none of this is happening or likely to under the current climate so the problem remains ,only this morning a “Professor “on the Today program was talking about how terrorism from the far right was not being addressed and how the internet should be censoring their blogs ,claiming “traditional” islamic percieved terrorism was declining ? and the far right (he included the EDL in this) was on the rise and should be addressed.
      There are times when you give up when presented with balanced ! arguments when there is no balance.

  3. Mudplugger
    February 6, 2012 at 8:57 am

    It is interesting to contrast with the challenge faced by organised Christianity, as it tries to come to terms with a set of ‘liberal’ social developments in modern states. Basically, it’s tearing itself apart. First it was divorce, then homosexuality, then women priests, then formalised gay relationships, then gay priests, then gay marriage…..and so it goes on. Each time a social change rubs up against the traditional teaching, the structure of the organisation is weakened further. It’s a self-inflicted death-by-a-thousand-cuts.

    Islam, not only because of its origins in undeveloped societies, is watching and learning from this. It faces a choice: either try to accommodate social change (and engage in self-destruction like Christianity is doing) or reinforce, with all powers available, the fundamentals to try to survive. The outcome of the first option is already visible to them, so really it’s Mohammed Hobson’s choice.

    Whilst still having a largely uneducated and undeveloped populace of followers, they see this option at least offering a chance of resisting the flow of liberalism from the developed world, especially if they can insinuate their views and people into the very heart of ‘the enemy’ – this is what we are seeing now, aided and abetted by the multi-culturalism so naively supported by others under different agendas.

    The ‘Arab Spring’ may have been greeted by many as a flowering of democracy, but that is equally naive. It is just another step on the Islamists survival route, as their embedded ‘sleepers’ rise through the ruins to envelop yet another area to their control.

    Whether or not this long-game will succeed, many of us will not live long enough to see, but history suggests that the march of education, bringing freedom of questioning thought, coupled with increased openness of communication, will consign this to ultimate, albeit expensive, failure. Mohammed Hobson may fail after all.

  4. February 6, 2012 at 11:18 am

    Yes, difficult question, perhaps because there’s Islam and there’s Islam. Radical Islam gives me the shits, but all Muslims I’ve personally had contact with seem to practice a kind of Islam that I found about as threatening as Middle England village church Christianity, and despite talking religion with them no Muslim has ever attempted to talk me into converting. That’s more than I can say for a significant minority of Christians I’ve met. And then there’s Christianity and there’s Christianity too, including politicised Christianity. Not so noticeable in the UK, I found, but you get it here and you get a lot of it in the world’s most powerful nation. That gives me the shits almost as much as radical Islam. And when it comes down to these maniacs who choose to take absolutely every word in their respective holy books literally I don’t think there’s so much as a cigarette paper between the Religion of Peace and the Religion of Love. I really don’t. You can justify at least as much hatred and violence with the Bible as you can the Koran, and you’re just as dead if someone with no imagination and a room temperature IQ kills you for it. A lot of Christians would say that doing so would mean you’re not a Christian, or at best a very bad Christian, but moderate and Muslims would say the same about their headjobs.

    Okay, Christianity has a few centuries’ head start and has got to the stage where its radical loonies are a much smaller minority than Islam’s, but every single time this topic crops up I have to look at both religions honestly and ask which has had the greater negative impact on my life and freedom, and the answer has always been Christianity, or at least Christians. Christian politicians and policies prevent me from shopping when I like and even restrict me from buying certain things (including products that are available in other nominally Christian nations), and this isn’t the past I’m talking about – it’s right now in 2012 in a country with an openly atheist Prime Minister. Do not think for one minute that the Christian voting bloc is not a significant one, at least in some nations. And that means that to help save a soul I don’t believe I have and in the name of a god for which I’ve seen no convincing evidence I must not be free. I’d add also that the colossal overreaction to Islamist fundie terrorists, specifically the stripping of yet more liberties, has been at the hands of Christian politicians, though I don’t think that’s because they’re Christian so much as because they’re bloody stupid. Still, all that’s probably just because my whole life has been spent in nominally or officially Christian countries. If I’d been born in Iran or something I’d probably be saying that while these Christian nations keep electing trigger happy tools it’s Islam that’s most reduced my personal freedom. But obviously I’d be saying it much more quietly. :mrgreen:

    Going back to the issue of what to do I’m with Julia. The first and most important step is to ditch this multi-culti thing. Come to our countries by all means, practise your faith and speak your language when you’re here if you like, but do not for one nanosecond believe that you’re entitled to any special favours. If you don’t want to learn English you’re going to be stuffed because there will be no effort made to find translators or produce material in anything other than English or other indigenous languages, and if your beliefs say you can’t work on a certain day it is not discrimination if you’re turned down for a job where they need you on that day of the week. No restrictions, because we’re civilised and we don’t do thought crime, but no favours either. You don’t have to do what the Romans do when in Rome, but you have absolutely zero right to expect them to do things your way. If you don’t like that then the aircraft you came in on is right behind you. And if that means I end up being one of several million shipped back to Blighty because we can’t speak Woiwurrung can we all kip in someone’s spare room, please?

    • nisakiman
      February 6, 2012 at 7:11 pm

      Your last paragraph I would endorse wholeheartedly.

      However…(deep breath)…

      When I was a lad, still a teenager, I set out on my travels. I had no prejudices in any area. It hadn’t been part of my upbringing, and it formed no part of my thinking.

      I spent several months travelling in Islamic countries, and those months left me with an abiding impression that Islam is a truly unpleasant religion.

      I’ve also spent a lot of time in Animistic, Hindu and Buddhist cultures, as well as Christian of course, so I can make comparisons with a degree of education.

      Although I found a great degree of hospitality and warmth in all the Muslim countries I spent time in, I also found a lot of hostility. Hostility of a sort I’ve never experienced in any other culture.

      I’ve had a cross pendant I was wearing torn from my neck by a complete stranger and ground beneath his heel in front of me. I’ve had the (conservatively dressed) woman I’m with grossly molested in public, and when I retaliated I was faced with a hostile mob protecting the perpetrator. And I have been stoned (yes, that way as well, but I’m talking hard missiles here!) By youths for no reason other than that I was obviously foreign. To name but a few of the more extreme examples. I have travelled fairly widely, mostly at street level, and have got beneath the skin of most places I’ve been. In no other culture have I been so insulted or so threatened.

      I reiterate, I also made some good friends, and have no compunction about traveling in the Middle East and bear no ill-feeling to any Muslim I might meet. I still take every man as he comes, regardless.

      But my personal experiences convinced me long ago that the Religion of Peace is the most fucked up religion on the planet.

  5. john in cheshire
    February 6, 2012 at 11:59 am

    QM, well said. islam is not able to exist within a Western civilised country. I suspect that some time; it may be in 50 or 100 years; there will be an internal conflict between us the natural inhabitants of our nation, and these incomers. We’d better make sure that we prevail over them or our civilisation will be destroyed.

    • Sean O'Hare
      February 6, 2012 at 5:09 pm

      The internal conflict has already started. I would give it 10 years at the most before open warfare and 20 before the conflict is resolved.

      • Tattyfalarr
        February 7, 2012 at 1:11 pm

        Just curious here…what makes you think TPTB would allow open warfare to go on for more than a week…tops ?

        There has been concerted effort by TPTB to deliberately inflame tensions between “communities” so if and when it ever kicked off on a massive scale nationwide TPTB could simply declare martial law, send in the army and then we’re ALL “Equally” fucked.

        Remember….recent riots were deliberately allowed to go on for a few days. They watched, waited and weighed up the political advantages only acting when they felt it appropriate.

  6. February 6, 2012 at 1:41 pm

    Things won’t change in the UK until the government is changed and the Big Three are removed from power. Then the UK can be removed from the EU and make its own decisions.

    Yes and that’s the message to get out there.

  7. nemesis
    February 6, 2012 at 6:52 pm

    Raedwald has a post up today that may be of interest:

    “The Home Affairs Committee have just published a report on tackling violent extremism. “Roots of Radicalism” is published on the Parliamentary website, and presumably news organisations were given advance access to the embargoed version to allow them to craft suitably considered articles. The majority of the MSM, even the Guardian, correctly introduce the report as being primarily concerned with Islamic extremism. A rough reading suggests that some 98% of the report is about Islamic extremism. So how do you imagine the BBC reports the publication on its website? Correct. “MPs fear far right terror threat”. As a distortion of the truth, it’s up there with “WWII bomber found on Moon” and “Freddie Starr ate my hamster”……….

    • February 8, 2012 at 8:41 pm

      I listened to it on the radio several times and couldn’t believe how they had managed to avoid the ‘I’ word… 😮

  8. Dave G
    February 6, 2012 at 9:40 pm

    The answer is ‘scrutiny’ – nothing insubstantial stands up to it, provided you’re allowed freedom to scrutinise it in the first damned place.

    Muslim disparities with our way of life are abundant yet to identify any, or worse, advertise any, is tantamount to treason.

    Freedom to “scrutinise and advertise” is all we need.

  9. Ed P
    February 6, 2012 at 10:16 pm

    Just consider this problem from a Libertarian point of view. It’s quite obvious that Islam does not fit at all with Western standards of freedom of expression, etc.
    Despite the wailings of left wing apologists, there is no such thing as “moderate Islam” – there are many Muslims for whom the Koran is literally true: a little study will reveal that they are supportive, even if personally passive, of radicalism. Islam is unlike all other religions in that it has violent overthrow of all opposition hard-wired into its creed. (This is not just my opinion, but that of Muslim scholars.)

    • nemesis
      February 6, 2012 at 10:41 pm

      A radical muslim will kill you. A moderate one will explain why you deserve to die.

      • ivan
        February 7, 2012 at 1:40 pm

        Don’t you mean ‘a radical muslim will kill you out of hand. A moderate one will explain why you deserve to die as he kills you.’

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